I was interviewed by Tanya Gioia for her Blessed Family Recovery Summit. In this conversation, we talk about how emotions are relevant to the addictions recovery process, both for the recovering addict and their loved ones, the hidden costs of self-sacrifice, and how anger heals.

Listen to the podcast or scroll down for the transcript ⬇️

Tanya: Welcome to the Blessed Family Recovery Summit. I'm Tanya Joya, your host, and I have with me today, Joanne Kim. She is a therapist turned feelings translator, and you're going to be blown away. By her discussions and by also how she implements this through drawing and translating feelings. And be sure to check out her Instagram page, which is called Intelligent Emotions, and you can see a lot of her drawings.

Tanya: Welcome Joanne. We're talking about anger this morning, but before we jump into that why don't you fill us in on what feelings translator means and how you got there?

Joanne: Yeah, I am a big feeler from birth - born into a family that's very allergic to feelings.

Tanya: And you have to stop there. Allergic to feelings. That's delightful. What, what would an allergic to feeling family look like?

Joanne: Basically at the presence of any particular feeling that's like, not numbness. There's kind of like a freeze reaction. Like people have the deer in the headlights look, they don't really know how to handle it. I just remember there was this one Thanksgiving several years ago, like back when I was in college, where like I decided to challenge my dad. And then that was like a huge no no in my family. And everyone just like, looked away. We're not here! Yeah, yeah. It was kind of like a Polaroid shot in and of itself. Like, this is what captures what my family was like. Got it. Okay, sorry, I interrupted you.

Tanya: Feelings translator from a family that's allergic to feelings. Thank you for that definition. And then how did you roll into the work you're doing.

Joanne: Well, long story short, so first-born daughter of immigrant family, grew up in the church and all that while being queer, and lots of stuffed feelings that kind of blew up out of college. And, you know, decided to enter into find my own therapy space as a client for several years. And I didn't really have any idea of what I wanted to do in my life until I worked through enough things and I learned a lot and I was like, you know maybe I should try this therapy thing because it's pretty much what I'm already doing, focusing on emotions, really confronting things that are very difficult that actually make things a lot easier and smoother because not doing that makes things harder in actuality. Yeah, so I became a therapist myself and in a lot of the work that I've done with my clients, I found out that there's quite a repetitive pattern. In terms of what kind of feelings came up, how people deal with them, what usually happens, and I observed that different emotions have different themes and needs, that maybe instead of emotions being super random, chaotic, and mysterious, maybe they actually have a logic of their own. We just don't have the key to unlock them. So, playing around with that idea, I found that emotions, as a language, has its own vocabulary and has its own grammar structure. We have not learned this in school. Right. It would have come in handy. And so, yeah, a lot of my people are like, you know, why didn't, why didn't they teach this in school? And I'm like, this is why I'm trying to fill in the gap here.

Tanya: So tell me about the grammar and the structure of emotions. That's wonderful.

Joanne: So vocabulary wise, each emotion, so I like calling it the big five, mad, sad, glad, scared, numb. Obviously there are more than these five feelings, but just for simplicity's sake. Each of these emotional categories have their own go to themes. So, you can think of each one as a word with its own meaning and definitions. Sometimes there are multiple definitions that it depends on the situation of the context. As for the grammar, there is a specific way by which we use our, what we do when a feeling comes up. So when we, an emotion comes up, we feel the emotion, we reveal the need or the meaning. And we deal with the need. So feel, reveal, deal. That's the grammar structure.

Tanya: Now we were never taught that because I'm like, I know I feel, I sometimes reveal in ways I don't want to. But do I actually deal with the emotion?

Joanne: Well, so there's two components. Dealing is actually referring to the need, not the emotion. So there's feel, reveal, deal. That's the actual grammar we're supposed to use. And then there's feel, deal, conceal. This is what we actually end up doing. So we feel the emotion and then we try to deal with the emotion by shoving it aside, pushing it away, dumping it on other people. Like a lot of the addiction stuff, like this is kind of where it comes up. And then we end up concealing the need. The purpose of emotions is to highlight what our needs are, but if we never find out what they are, because we shot the messenger. We think that we resolved the problem only to find out that we just buried it until, you know, what's an Amazon delivery guy supposed to do? He's supposed to come back until the package is delivered, right? Or like that. Harry Potter mail system. Like the letters are going to come in through the chimneys and find all kinds of ways of showing up because we considered the messenger itself as bad.

Tanya: So, when the, when the person who is struggling with addiction shows up, the fam shows up at the family and they're concealing their needs, the family is just looking at the outside package.

Seeing Beyond the Surface: Understanding the Pain Behind the Struggle

Joanne: I mean, it's like, making a snap decision based on what they visibly see versus understanding the underlying dynamics that led them here in the first place. You know, like seeing someone who is struggling with alcoholism and only seeing that they're drunk, only seeing that they're not paying their bills, that they're not showing up for work, like the consequences of addictions versus asking the question, like, why do they feel a need to drink in the first place? Right, like, what is the function that in this case, alcohol is serving maybe because they're heartbroken because their partner of seven years left them. Maybe it's because they feel so hopeless that, you know, the future looks very bleak, especially with this economy, or like, maybe there was a miscarriage like, there's all kinds of painful things that often prompt someone to try to do something dampen the pain or increase pleasure or both, but we often see only the practical consequences of that and then judge accordingly. So the person who needs the most care and tenderness is often the one who's rejected, exiled, criticized, right? Which only kind of reinforces the desire the need to use.

Tanya: So we've taken it from the point of the family so that they come into the family the family does let's just give them a typical response. Why are you doing this? You're ruining your life, you know all those types of things. What is the person who is struggling hearing?

Joanne: It's like what's wrong with you? Why can't you figure things out? Like, you know, why can't you be like your brother or like all kinds of like shaming judgmental messages? It's definitely not like hey, are you okay? Are you needing something? Like, how can I come and care for you?

Tanya: That walks us into the anger piece. So then everybody starts to get angry. What's happening as they're starting to get angry?

Joanne: So let me back up a bit. I said the big five emotions, the way that these signal what we need is if they're in their primary emotion form, meaning something happens and we have an immediate emotional response or an initial emotion, that specific emotion is what is directly connected to what we're needing. It's the instantaneous. The immediate one, basically before our defense mechanisms kick in. Okay. Right. Like shock. Right. Something happens. It's like, I don't even know what's going on. But because certain emotions of the five have been labeled as bad for whatever reason, like anger might be one of those emotions. Someone sees someone being angry and they're like, this is not okay. And then their defense mechanisms kick in and it's like, we're going to shut this down. We're not going to deal with any of this. And then they summon another emotion like anxiety or numbness. There you go. So we have the initial emotion, they call it this primary emotion and then the secondary emotion and then so on. This is the one that we're trying to get to, but this is the one that people shove aside. And we saw in other feelings and said like the movie Inside Out. So in that movie, spoiler alert, but in that movie, the initial primary emotion was sadness. The main character, Riley, the kid, you know, is feeling distraught because her parents Just decided to move across the country. She left behind all her friends, etc. That was the initial emotion. But because sadness, according to the internal crew, has been labeled as bad, her parents are trying to cheer her up, like Joy steps in, like nobody knows what to do with Sadness. So Sadness runs away. And then Joy kind of runs after her and then the three remaining emotions are at the dashboard trying to figure out what the heck to do. These are, these are the secondary emotions. So these are not the emotions for us to immediately listen to, but we need to find out what they are. And so now we're talking about anger specifically. Well, how we deal with anger depends on, is it a primary emotion or is it a secondary emotion? Because there are some situations where anger is absolutely the rightful response. Like, you know, mama bear mode. If someone messes with her cubs, like she ought to be very angry. Because one of its meanings is around who or what really matters and that thing or person is being threatened. Right. It needs protection and advocacy, right? Very powerful, active, big emotion that helps, you know, take care of the vulnerable party. That would be a sense where a lot of us would be like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Anger would be a very good thing. Or other messages are around what's right or wrong. So like there being a standard and the standard or ideal not being met. In a nutshell, anger says this here is really not okay. And it needs to change now. So primary anger. That is the nutshell definition. Number one, this is not okay. Number two, this needs to change. Number three, this needs to change now. So, we can acknowledge the meaning of that anger, and sometimes still not know what to do with it. Right? There's the experience of an emotion, and there's the expression of an emotion, and they're not the same thing. They're two separate stages and experiencing an emotion is an absolute must. We all have to do it to be connected with ourselves truthfully, be a whole person instead of being fragmented, to be with integrity, to be present, all of that. Expressing an emotion requires wisdom because not every situation is one that's welcoming of a specific emotion. Even though we are rightfully distraught that our partner forgot our birthdays, in the middle of a work meeting is probably not the best time to express that. Because first of all, it's not anywhere near the partner. And second of all, it can put that already injured party at further risk of further hurt. So there's an experience of the emotion. The person gets to feel angry, but what would, what do they do with it? That depends. For some people who are in, let's say a, an emotionally or physically violent relationship, usually we think about boundaries, assertiveness, those are great skills that everyone ought to have. Well, yes, but if I'm working with someone who's in current, a currently violent relationship, I will not teach them how to practice boundaries and be assertive. Because it's not safe for them to do that right now. Instead, I would say, okay, you have the right, absolute right to be angry and pissed off that this is happening. Let's strategize how you can take care of yourself in the long run. So direct, channel that anger towards creating a go back towards figuring out, okay, do you have kids? Like, are they going to be okay? Like, what are the next steps here? And then when it's time, then take action to channeling that anger into energy towards a strategic action, basically, rather than rather than hard boundaries that could get everybody hurt. Yeah, with the abusive partner or person.

Tanya: So let's, let's come back to so the family, they're, they're surprised by whatever the addiction is. And they do say. This is not our standards. This is not how we behave in this family again. And again, it's a pushback. What, how could they respond? So there's always this dynamic of I love this person. I don't like what they're doing. And that raises some anger. How do I use it? You said wisdom. How do I use wisdom?

Joanne: Well, anger is about the behavior, not about the person, right? Anger. So let's say if I were a family member, I'd be like, like, this is not okay because you're neglecting your responsibilities or you're making decisions that hurt us. We will not tolerate. We will not accept that. We love you, but we cannot be in the same room together. Not like this, but we love you. Right? Right? Right now, as you are, you need help, you need something so that you don't continue to add more pain in this relationship. The alternative would be like, what's the matter with you? Why did you do this? Like, why can't you? And then so on so forth. The person who's already in pain can't tell the difference between whether or not they're being judged or whether it's really about the behaviors. And part of the time it's because of the injured party or the family member's delivery. So like when there is like an intervention or some or some kind of confrontation, it's like, Hey, like, I really care about you. I'm going to guess that there's some good reason why you went down this path. But right now, what you're doing is having this ripple effect. Right now, what you're doing is causing a lot of harm, or is causing disconnection. And we really need to figure out something else. So anger is about the situation, it's not about the person. And then there's a message of like, we need to figure out something else. Not you are the problem, so you need to fix it.

Tanya: That's the difference. You, it's not you are the problem, you fix it. It is we need to figure out something in the relationship. How this is going to work.

Joanne: I mean, that comes from the assumption. There's probably a good reason why you went down this path. I don't know what that reason is. You might not know the reason. But let's assume that someone doesn't just like magically stumble upon this path for the most part, right? Let's just kind of assume, you know, giving the other person the benefit of the doubt, assuming that they have their own trauma. They have their own reactivity. Sometimes in pain, we do things. Because we don't think that far ahead about the consequences. The pain is so loud in the moment. It's a very human response, right? Like, if you, you know, walk by the dining table and you stub your toe, like, we're gonna curse, right? In response, like, do we judge ourselves for having sworn in that moment? No, it's not. It's reflex. So maybe addiction is also kind of in that reflexive category instead of like a deliberate, like, you know, heinous masterminded plan that this person is going to completely destroy the family. It's not likely.

Tanya: That, that's a really good statement. There is some, I think there is some fear that this was a design all along. When, as you put it out there, it wasn't designed that way. With, with the family and they're struggling and maybe stuffing their anger, what do they need to be, stuffing their anger, trying to love, what do they need to be doing for themselves?

Joanne: I mean, first of all, I don't think they need to stuff their anger. How would they release it? A couple of different ways. One is, I mean, anger doesn't always look like throwing plates at the wall. Okay. Right? Anger can sound like this, give me back my stapler. It could actually be a very emotionally grounded neutral statement. Because anger is really about something's not okay. This needs to change at least since you change now, right? And so anger can sound like, you know, again, we love you and we're gonna assume that there's some reason why you went down this path and Also, what is happening in this relationship is not okay, and this needs to change now. That's what anger can sound like So there's no need to stuff that there actually needs to be said because there's some concrete immediate decisions that need to be made. But in terms of the grief, like the more raw forms of sadness, anger, feeling distraught, etcetera, the expression of that might be more beneficial for the person to express either with other people who are not related. Friends would come in handy, therapists would come in handy, you know, reading up on anonymous forums of people who are also in the same situation because the need is for validation, solidarity, connection, understanding, etc. Or, if it's really a matter of like the raw pent up energy, go for a run. Because, honestly, the family members, chances are there's also addiction on their end. It just might not be in substances or the obvious behaviors. Being a fixer, being a peacemaker, might also be forms of addiction. But we don't really think about that as much.

Tanya: But that's what we really are talking about during the summit is there are reasons for you and your behavior and your anger. And talk about the connection with anger and fear and what is happening with that.

Unmasking Its Power: How Anger Heals and Its Hidden Roots

Joanne: We'll circle, right? We talked about primary motion, secondary motion sometimes. And I talked about anger when it's primary form. It really means this is not okay. This needs to change now. It also has like themes of justice, you know, integrity, standards, ideals, etcetera. But anger can also show up as a secondary emotion. So in the movie Inside Out, we see anger in the secondary form because anger itself has a lot of energy, action, power, present focus, etcetera. So if some other emotion has been labeled as bad, in the example that you're giving. You know, fear might be labeled as a bad emotion, let's say, especially for men. Men aren't allowed. They're not given permission to feel and express fear because men, you know, or and some other individuals in a family or system are expected to be strong to expect to be to be the powerful leader to know what the hell to do to always, like, have a plan, to be dependable, reliable, etc. Those individuals have gotten the message that it's not okay to be scared or sad, by the way. Right. Because fear and sadness are both one down emotions. It's a more tender, vulnerable stance. Whereas anger is a one up stance. It's a very amplified, powerful position. So if a person has actually, you know, even joy can be labeled as a bad emotion. Well, you know, there are some people who are like, ayou know, when something good happens, they're like, when's the other shoe going to drop?

Tanya: So the fear, the fear that if I get something good, then something else will be taken away.

Joanne: Or, like, oh, I shouldn't feel happy because, like, my, my friend or my sibling is suffering who do I think I am to be happy or to be experiencing goodness in this situation. Right? But it's kind of like, it's as if there's no space for more than 1 emotion. Right? Like, you know, if someone's sibling has a miscarriage and then you just get a promotion, like, how do you reconcile the reality of two experiences that kind of go in opposite directions? Sure. Well, you know, the person can still have permission to be excited about the promotion also while acknowledging that there's something terrible that happened with this other person. But anyway, yeah, all, any emotion can be labeled as a bad emotion. And that depends on the family, the individual. And so anger can kick in as a secondary, right? To help the person feel less vulnerable, more powerful, more in control, what have you. That's the kind of emotion, that's the kind of anger that we need to reign back because it doesn't meet the person's original needs.

Tanya: It's happening, but it's concealing what they really need.

Joanne: Because if they're feeling scared, what they need is comfort, support, resources, preparation, whatever. But if they pull that back and they lead with anger, right? And anger gives other people the impression that they're in charge, they're powerful, etc. They don't actually get the support that they actually need.

Tanya: So, so that, so they've, they're, they're technically asking for something, but they're asking for it. Backwards.

Joanne: Yes. And they do themselves a disservice and they also make it very confusing for other people. So we kind of end up digging ourselves into a deeper hole.

Tanya: So how do you, and, and I, I noticed you had your pictures with you. How do you help people sort out what they really need, especially folks who don't really understand that they have at least these five basic emotions?

Joanne: Well, it's, it's going to be difficult in the beginning. I'm just going to say. Okay, the first step is to just acknowledge that we have feelings. It doesn't matter what feelings they are. It doesn't matter if we don't know what to do with those feelings. Just that we have feelings, that is already the first step. Because if we expect that we shouldn't have feelings, we've already gone down that dark path even before we've even realized that we have a certain feeling. Right? And so I had kind of drawn this example for audio listeners. I drew a picture where there's a little person who's decided I'm not going to deal with my feelings. And so they kind of toss the feeling into a hole in the ground, hoping that it'll just disappear. Right. Not realizing that that hole in the ground where they've dropped their feeling, goes into the pit of lava of all the other feelings that they've lopped off and buried. Until there comes a tipping point where something else happens in the future where all those unresolved feelings just kind of blow up like a volcano and erupt out of nowhere, causing lots of chaos, lots of confusion. Lots of debris, lots of casualties and the person's like, I don't even know where this feeling came from.

Tanya: So instead of putting positive deposits in the bank, I'm dropping these things I don't want to deal with down this hole, but they're not dissolving.

Joanne: No, because shoving feelings aside doesn't actually make them go anywhere. We just don't notice them in the moment, but our bodies. There's a book called The Body Keeps the Score. Very good book. But the idea is that our bodies are one of our ways of acknowledging reality for what it is. Our thoughts and emotions can be everywhere else but here, but our bodies can only be at one place at one time and it's experience, whatever it's experience, whether we agree with it or not.

Tanya: So the body will always know. Even when we have created a narrative that is not, is disconnected, I guess.

Joanne: That's the nature of denial. Most of us live in denial.

Tanya: I always think of, of the Neo living, he's decided not to live in denial anymore. In the matrix, he refuses to live in the matrix and then he has to eat this gruel stuff and he lives basically without clothes and all that stuff. So most of us are living like Neo. We are in denial.

Joanne: Yes. Yeah. And so our bodies are registering what we've gone through, but our psyche might not have been ready, reckoned with reality for what it is. So it's a good thing that we have this gap between what our body's experiences in our psyche Because not every situation is safe for us to actually process what the heck is happening in the moment Right, and so our bodies are like, okay I'm a I'm a hold this luggage for you because now it's not a good time for you to figure out what's inside of it But what do you do when you have a whole bunch of luggages that kind of piles up anytime you want to find that, you know, one picture or that one receipt, you're gonna have to dig through all of them and then everything comes out.

Right. Right. Or it might just be like adding yet another piece of luggage is what has what kind of ends up spilling over. Into living room, and it's just a complete mess. Ideally, we would be ideally, we would have the margin to even open up those luggages and then figure out what's inside of it, and like, put the individual items where they belong.

And then we just tuck the luggage away. It's not a problem that we have baggage, but it's a problem. It's a ticking time bomb when there's a whole bunch that's accumulated and there's no particular plan to open them back up to sort the things that are inside.

Tanya: And that's when we get the volcano.

Joanne: Because our bodies are like, hello, remember me?

Joanne: Don't forget me. It's usually like, you know, people who like one specific addiction is workaholism. I live in the Silicon Valley, like It's as if workaholism doesn't exist here because everyone's basically workaholic. Right, right. And so, it's like the body just shuts down one day. Person gets sick, day after day, or they have an ulcer, like.

A lot of people, especially in a lot of Asian communities, like the main way that they might make it to therapy is because they went to the doctor because they were having stomach issues and they like did all the normal routine tests, no medical issue. And they're like, is this stress related?

Tanya: So, so there's, they're showing up at what's acceptable.

Which is the medical doctor, they're saying I've got this pain. This is going on. These things are happening. Yeah, the doctor saying your body is running. Okay, but the body is screaming.

Joanne: Yeah, I mean, they might treat the ulcer. But it's only a matter of time until some other part breaks down.

Tanya: So when we're dealing with anger, can what are some steps to take to release it other than because okay.

My own experience is I do get relief if I've yelled or complained or done all those things. I get relief, but I have severely damaged the relationship.

Joanne: Yeah, so I think it depends on how much anger has built up. Anger desires, anger requires a target. It needs to be directed somewhere. If it's the, this is not okay, this needs to change kind.

If it's the action oriented kind, if it's the, I need for somebody to know somebody to be my witness, that some atrocious thing happened to me and that it's really not, okay. That's a validation need, not a change need who is the witness. It depends. I would recommend depending on how much anger is built up that the person.

The eligible candidate for that witness be someone who has enough emotional grounding of their own, like who can tolerate another person being angry without them going into people pleasing mode or fixer mode.

Tanya: Ooh. Ooh. Ooh. Stop right there. So enough emotional awareness that you could hold, hold the, hold the trap and let them spew the anger without going into, well, in a family situation, well, I'll go talk to him or I'll take care of it or I'll spend the money for it.

Joanne: That doesn't help because that person the fixer person makes it about them and their discomfort rather than this person who's really needing someone to join them and see them in their pain.

Tanya: Okay I'm gonna have to rewatch all this again so what that person is asking me to do is not say they're right about what they're saying or why they're angry, but to be there in solidarity to hear it, validate that they're angry.

Maybe it's not something that makes me angry, but they're angry. Not fix it because then it becomes about Tanya instead of whoever has brought the anger to me.

Joanne: So an example of the, what is helpful to say in those moments is dude, totally like, this is what happened. Like you put in all this work and yet your coworker who barely lifts a finger got promoted.

Yeah, that's a terrible situation. You ought to be angry like anyone in your situation is right to be upset.

Tanya: What if you don't agree with what they're angry about but still want to validate them that they have anger?

Joanne: Yeah, anger mentioned anger has the message of change or action. Anger has a message of validation. Anger also has a message of value or what matters to them. So, you know, validating anger sounds like, Hey, I can tell this really matters to you.

And what really matters to you didn't turn out the way that you wanted. Yeah, that makes sense that you're angry because what really mattered to you didn't happen the way that you wanted.

Tanya: And it's contained and I'm not validating that I think this was right or wrong. I'm just validating that it didn't happen for them because there are things that happen in families that, you know, you may not agree with, but being the fixer gets eyes on you, not saying anything gets a numbing out and non validation and then getting in the same boat when you really don't believe in it.

Trashes your alignment.

Joanne: Well, I mean, the way that I framed it, it's, it's a circular conversation. It's like, this is what really matters to you. That thing didn't happen the way that you wanted it to, and you're in pain. That's a closed conversation. That's not really a conversation. It's a closed topic. Nowhere in the space is there any room for my opinion about that.

Tanya: That's fabulous because a lot of times, I think we give an opinion when they're not asking for an opinion.

Joanne: Yeah, and so let me just give you a light-hearted example. My husband loves Street Fighter, the game. And sometimes, like while I'm like watching TV or whatever, I hear this like loud expletive in his room while he's playing.

And uh, to a typical person, they hear this loud angry outburst and they're like, Oh my gosh, what's going on? Are you okay? Or they're like, why are you yelling? Right? For me, it's like, I mean, I'm guessing that something didn't go according to plan while he was playing. That has nothing to do with me. If anything, if I were to be bothered by anything, it's maybe the volume.

Right. Right. Right. But, I mean, he's like tucked away in his room. I can kind of hear it if I'm really paying attention. But it's only a matter of me like being like, eh, okay, let me just continue watching the show. Right, right, right. It's not like he's like throwing anything, but you know like that's kind of for him that was he experienced anger and then he expressed it the expressing was he let out a loud verbal, you know.

And so it's kind of contained as it is and then later on we might have dinner together like hey like what was going on back then. He was like yeah this is this happened I'm like, yeah, that does sound frustrating. I don't care about Street Fighter at all. I have zero desire for it. It's like, You know, it doesn't mean anything to me personally, but it does to him and that frankly is all that matters.

The only thing, only requirement for me to be a supportive person is to acknowledge he matters and what he values also matters, but it matters to him and It doesn't have to matter to me. Empathy is not about being fused with another person and agreeing in every single decision point. It's just acknowledging you're a person.

I'm a person. We are two independent people. We have our likes and dislikes. We have our personal experiences, right? I can get a promotion and be excited. My sibling can have a miscarriage and be distraught or vice versa. And like, they can coexist without diminishing the other. That, I think, is boundaries in a nutshell.

Yeah, to coexist without diminishing the other. Yes, I think that is what empathy means. Because there's a term that I picked up in a book called Radical Candor called ruinous empathy.

Tanya: Ruinous empathy? Oh, tell us.

When Empathy Goes Too Far: The Hidden Costs of Self-Sacrifice

Joanne: So, you know how, like, love as an emotion is generally assumed to automatically be good and hate as an emotion is generally assumed to automatically be bad?

Yeah. And so empathy is another one of those terms that is automatically assumed to be good. Mm-Hmm, . But ruin as empathy is when that goes too far. Basically, I am going to mold myself to make another person feel comfortable, but at my own expense.

Tanya: Isn't that the definition of codependence? That is true, but I like ruinous sympathy better.

I'm gonna write that down. Ruinous empathy. Yeah. I might say codependency describes the behavior pattern.

Joanne: Ruinous Empathy describes the emotional engine that drives it. And why it's so difficult to not do codependent behaviors. Because it's really about shame. It's about thinking the other person, oh poor them, they are automatically good and they're having a hard time.

I'm not good. Who am I to have needs? So in order for me to feel better about myself and deal with my shame is to make someone else feel better about their pain and that leads to codependent dynamics.

Tanya: And again, it's a circle. I'm not really, when you get to the core of it, I'm not really empathizing with them to help them meet their needs.

I'm empathizing to help my needs get met, which I refuse to acknowledge, which I refuse to acknowledge that I have needs. And then the anger flares up because you're not, I've put all my eggs over in your basket. Then you're not listening to me. And. I'm like, yeah.

Joanne: That's why that's, that's why resentment is one of my favorite emotions because resentment is one of the reasons why people eventually reach out to me when you get to that level of resentment.

I mean, in like a cheeky way of saying it is like, if someone gets resentful, I get paid. So another.

Tanya: Since you are in California, another movie reference of the anger management, the goose Baba, and there are no justified resentments. It just always strikes me as. That really is true because you've put yourself in a place to resent that person by over-giving, by not having needs, and by not recognizing your five key emotions.

So, I think we've begun to answer the question that you asked your group: what is the anger costing you? How do you help people see that?

Joanne: Well, it's either anger costing you or stuffing anger that's costing you. I don't know. It depends on the person and their situation. Right? The way that I frame things is the general principle of it.

Obviously, everyone has individual situations and their nuances involved. And the big question mark is around, am I feel, am I, what I'm seeing right now, is it primary emotion or secondary emotion? That's the number one question to ask. Because if we're dealing with a secondary emotion, that means some other emotion is actually the main thing I need to get to.

So, if a person is feeling secondary or reactive anger, then it's asking, okay, by being in this anger stew, What other feeling am I avoiding right now? So, uh, you know, mad, sad, glad, scared, numb, I'm overdoing mad. What is happening to the other four? What's happening to sadness? What's happening to joy? What's happening to fear?

What's happening to numbness?

Tanya: How do you help people? That's a very mature question. It is a mature question. And so I don't assume that everyone knows how to do this because people can read all kinds of books. Go to all kinds of seminars, listen to this podcast. I don't know. Accumulate all this information, but when it really comes down to it, in the heat of the moment, they might not be able to remember any of that.

In that case, it's better for them to reach out to a therapist. Okay.

Joanne: What are exercises? What are a couple practical exercises that you give your clients as they are trying basically come back into myself, you know, and go, okay, where am I exactly?

And I think the answer is in our bodies.

Again, our thoughts and emotions can be everywhere else but here, but our bodies can only be in one place at one time. And it's registering all the things that we've been through, even if we don't have conscious memory of it. It's holding all this emotional energy in raw form. And so I would say, go for a walk, stretch, do yoga, swim, if anything, scream into a pillow.

Or blast your music while you're driving on the freeway and, you know, sing or scream at the top of your lungs. No one's gonna hear it. No one cares. Right, right. Do something that involves energy exertion. So if it's like a person feeling very angry, that energy needs to go out somehow. If it's feeling sad, then it's curling up into the fetal position and allowing themselves to connect with that.

But depending on how intense the sadness is, I might call a friend and say, Hey, like, you know, can you call me in 30 minutes? Just to get the tether to come back out of it. If it's anxiety, anxiety is a very interesting emotion in that, like, sometimes it's a control emotion. Sometimes it's a vulnerability emotion.

Fixers tend to have a lot of anxiety, but they might not register it as such. Because they think they're being practical and responsible and all that stuff, right? But recognizing like, I feel so helpless right now. And acknowledging the reality that I am completely powerless to do anything regarding another person.

Being honest. And then, you know, what, if the person, what they're needing is actually more numbness, like, okay, I just need less. I have too many things on my plate. I don't have any margin in my schedule. I just need to take, cancel all my meetings and take a couple of days off or not pick up the phone when people are calling me at least for a couple of hours.

Until I feel more grounded and rested. So especially like the helpers or those who tend to be very codependent, that's super important for them to be in solitude and not interact with anybody for a solid chunk of time.

Tanya: And that's where you might. So the helper is not to interact. What if fear comes up around not interacting?

Joanne: Well, it's absolutely going to come up. It should come up because we need to deal with that fear because that fear is what's driving them towards being overly involved in other people's lives in the first place. Fear of loneliness, fear of not mattering, fear of shame, fear of feeling like they're not contributing to the world.

It's a lot of existential stuff at the end of it. No, but That person won't know that if they're engaged in their drug of choice, which is relationships.

Tanya: Yeah. So that separation piece is just going to, is going to be somewhat scary, just like going through a physical detox.

Joanne: Oh yeah. Mm hmm. So like we can, I mean, with withdrawal, it's like, we're gonna, we're gonna feel like shit.

We're going to feel worse. But that feeling worse does not mean that things are getting worse. We're actually getting better. But it's like, this is one of those moments where confronting the pain is actually what helps to resolve it rather than avoiding it and having it end up festering.

Tanya: Now how do you use, cause I know you do a lot of art.

How do you use your art? Art. If you're going to be alone, what could you be doing?

Joanne: I mean, so, it's less about art, but art being one medium for expression.

I would say perfectionist types who are concerned about what the end result will be like. I would say, take a pen with its cap on so it's not going to actually draw anything.

And then while you're on your couch or you're on your bed, scribble out whatever feeling you have.

Tanya: Oh, so you're not actually writing it down, but you're, you are doing the physical, right?

Joanne: Physical act of releasing. For people who do want to do more, they want to actually convey something on paper. I would say take the PAM brush or the marker or whatever in your non-dominant hand, and then go to town.

Why non-dominant? Because non-dominant, obviously you're not gonna create a masterpiece, right? It's like there's an assumption, like, I mean, it's not gonna look all that great. Okay, but at least you released something on the canvas or the piece of paper. There are also like non drawing or painting kinds of art, like working with clay.

It's been super helpful for a lot of people. It's very sensory oriented, right? Basically all the All the senses except for taste, like being really present in the moment, dealing with something that has no shape or form. Right. And that process itself kind of helping to release. It's a lot of like lizard brain stuff.

None of this is going to make sense to our thinking brain because that shuts down anyway when we're in pain. We want to express things in a more primal way. Mm-Hmm. . It could even be like taking a towel and then like tugging at it or like kind of imagining you're throwing a baseball with this, that there's that like arc movement.

It doesn't really matter what it is, it's that we do it so people can experiment, try a bunch of different things like. Noah's being graded.

Tanya: That's the, that's the strict person or the perfectionist person. And the, the front part is going to say this is a waste of time, I would imagine.

Joanne: Absolutely. Yeah. And I might say that, that voice that tells you this is a waste of time is probably what got you here in the first place.

Tanya: That I wasn't willing to take the time to release those things is probably what landed me in the chair opposite you saying, help.

Balancing the Inner Child and Adult: Reclaiming Childhood and Embracing Responsibility

Joanne: Yeah. So like there's a contrast between people who are outwardly overly expressive sometimes they're kind of like kids who are throwing tantrums. And they need more of a grown up self, self grown up self, right?

So that another person isn't stepping in as a grown up. The people who are stepping in are overly grown ups and they underly do the young kid side. Their needs got shoved. Because they're taking care of mom, who's like splayed on the floor or dad, who's a rageaholic their, their childhood experiences completely went out the window.

So we're trying to reverse all of this. Like the person who is overly in a child's state needs to learn how to Learn some executive skills or take responsibility and like that's what they need to grow in. But the person who often is stepping in on behalf of others needs to actually learn how to have a freaking hobby.

Do all the things that they never got a chance to do. So I have a blog, it's not on the intelligent emotion site, but more of the therapy page, but I wrote a blog called how to have, how to make a fuck it list. All the things that we never got to do growing up that we feel resentful about. Those are precisely the things to do.

Tanya: So do those things, go outside, play in the mud, draw, I hate to say it cause mine are all painted, draw on the walls. Yeah, that's fine. I put up paper on that because it's very satisfying. And, and what is the body responding to with this physical movement and the tactileness of this?

Joanne: I mean, it depends on the person.

Sometimes it's just a raw release. of pressure. Sometimes people feel buzzing. Sometimes there's like tears that come out. Sometimes it's kind of this like weight being lifted off. It depends on the person. I can't really say what, if there's a go to experience, but the body knows when it's done.

Tanya: If these anger blowups are happening, all of these techniques you've labeled, do you ever have anybody who says I've done all of those and nothing helped? Or normally when they get to three, four or their first one of choice, they're able to release that.

Joanne: I mean, I might say anything good can be turned into performance goal.

Okay. Even going to therapy. So might just be curious and ask them some questions like, you know, like what was going through your mind as you were doing these things? Oh, this is so stupid. Like, you know, this is not going to do anything. And then I might just have a conversation with that part. As a therapist, I do brain spotting, which is a type of trauma processing technique.

So it's like having a conversation with that voice, because that voice was there for some good purpose. Like the person who, you know, is often the fixer probably had to. Be the ones to step in in a lot of cases And so if i'm having a conversation with that part, I might say like like that makes sense Like, you know, you feel like you can't rely on anybody How has that cost you and usually that kind of gets them to connect with like?

Oh, I don't know. That means like I never had time to myself That means I never got to have any of my needs man Usually like the sadness or whatever kind of kicks them on the other side So it's not a problem that people run into resistance our bodies even though it's trying to advocate for us our psyches You are often not always not always open to the healing work.

It's like the defense mechanisms we have are set up to reinforce itself. It's like the person who's about to lose their job starting to create problems they know how to solve so that they stay employed. There's desperation, even within our defense mechanisms. Like what are you going to do if you've been a fixer your whole life and all of a sudden there's nothing or no one to fix?

I don't know. Dread kicks in.

Tanya: You're out of a job. Nobody wants you out of

Joanne: a job. You're out of a job

Tanya: in the family. You're like, okay, there's a lot of

Joanne: there's a lot of identity crises that happen because of that. And not everyone is open to that. And so that's why they prefer, you know, you caught, you brought up the movie, the matrix.

This is the guy, the bald guy who wants, he's eating his steak. And he's like, I know the steak is fake, but I don't care. I'd rather stay here. I'd rather stay

Tanya: here, which means so if you have a fixer, you have to have somebody who is not well.

Joanne: So that's why it's kind of a mutual parasite host relationship.

The addict is a parasite to a host that constantly gives resources or money or whatever. But the other person, the giver is also a parasite. Who needs a host. In this case, the host is the addict. The fixer needs a project. So that's why it's so hard to separate the two because both of them technically are relying on each other for what each of them need to really do for themselves.

Tanya: That's beautiful. That's beautiful. In the sense that we've been drawn together for our basic need reasons when really we could be doing these basic needs for ourself or seeking them in healthy, in healthy ways. And that. Neither one of us is sicker than the other, nor neither one of us is weller than the other.

Everyone's in pain. Everyone's in pain. That's why you have a job!

Joanne: That's why you have a job! Everyone's in pain, no one is getting more fulfilled. And that's the sad thing about, I think, any kind of addiction dynamic. No one's winning. Except, maybe For all these like dieting companies or like product marketers who are profiting off of other people's pain and hope that they, the customers stay dependent.

Lawyer, divorce lawyers, another example.

Tanya: And it's kind of, we're coming up on Black Friday in just about a week. It's the same. Kind of relationship, the market needs us to need and we need to need to have the market and we're going back and forth, but in the, in the, in the personal realm, in the marriage, in the child realm, if I'm a fixer and everybody gets well, and I'm out of a job, will I go around creating

Joanne: problems?

They will probably find other fixers. I'm sorry. They would probably find other people to fix.

Tanya: Unless I'm like, Oh, it's really nice to have my own free time. How do I sit in that? No. How do I come see Joanne and say, look, I don't want to do

Joanne: this anymore. But I give people a disclaimer upfront saying like, you might not like what comes up in this process and not everyone sticks it out completely voluntary.

I'm not going to like, you know, I'm not going to twist anyone's arm to the get to the other side. It has to be a voluntary process.

Tanya: Give us the benefits of getting to the other side though.

Joanne: A little benefits to getting to the other side, because I talked about, you know, the feel, was it feel, reveal, deal, and then the feel, deal, conceal, feel, reveal, deal, that is called the emotional flow state, feel, deal, conceal is what I call the emotional vortex.

That's the cyclone that we get sucked into, because we never figure out what the heck we need. pushing away all these emotions and shooting the messenger. So the benefits to being in the emotional flow states, then the vortex state that we get our needs met. And if we get our needs met, that means we have the margin, the resources, the surplus to get our wants met.

So instead of a vicious cycle that keeps us constantly deprived, we have a virtuous cycle that keeps replenishing us that we have overflow right now. Uh, Three businesses. And a lot of people are like, how do you do that? And I'll say it's definitely a full time job, but it's like, well, I can do this because I'm not spending as much emotional energy on things like imposter syndrome, comparisonitis, perfectionism, because I've addressed those emotional pains and gotten those needs met.

So I'm not wasting as much time working on things that for other people, they might spend an extra 20 hours on. in deliberating and still not being sure whether or not they're doing it well. So I'm freed up to do whatever I have in store for the day and then go home and watch a movie. Like it's kind of this ongoingly rejuvenating dynamic that has completely turned my life around, my relationships, my work, my finances, my physical health.

Like I just hit one year being a member at a yoga studio.

Tanya: Congratulations!

Joanne: If it were me like five years ago and someone were to tell me that I would be a yoga studio member, I'd be like, you're lying. I don't do that. I don't do that. Well, because back then it was a completely different emotional train.

There was a lot of like, well, you know, I don't deserve to spend money on myself. Like, who do I think I am that I can think that I could make a difference? Like, You know, what am I doing? This has to be right or else something really bad is going to happen. Like, that's the kind of stuff that I was struggling with.

But once I, I mean, I'm basically wanting to convey to other people, the thing that saved my life.

And so like now it's like, Oh crap. Like this is really fun. Like I can, you know, be asleep and at 2 AM I have another sale. Because I set up systems without, like, being caught up in those insecurities.

It's not to say that I don't struggle, but it's a lot quieter now. In here. Yeah. In here, like, every part of my body, it's like, yeah. You know, this didn't turn out the way that I wanted, but that's a bummer. And you know, I'm going to go hang out with my friends. There's a lightness and an openness to it that I can receive with open hands, whatever life has in store for me.

And if the next day what was given to me yesterday is not there anymore, it's like, okay. Let me see what else comes along my way versus being gripping the things that we have in life thinking that if we don't hold on tightly we're going to lose it. This closes off any opportunities for us to get something different.

Tanya: Gripping closes off opportunities to get something different. If I'm afraid that loved one is going to die, the more I grip it.

Joanne: Yes, and it ends up unfortunately extinguishing any further opportunities of having closeness, intimacy, being present, acknowledging your own humanity. Acknowledging the other person's humanity, celebrating life for all that it brings, including the hardships, but recognizing that sometimes the temporary aspect of our lives is what also makes it valuable.

Like, you know, we're going to take it for granted if we assume that our loved ones are going to be around forever. Right. And, but we, when we recognize our human limitations, like, yeah, there will come a time where we won't have this connection anymore. Let me really enjoy it and honor it for what good it is.

Oh my gosh.

Tanya: Now you're like, now I need to get off this call and go make pancakes for my kids. Yeah. So what you've described, the vortex versus, is it vortex versus the, Flow. Vortex.

Joanne: Vortex versus flow.

Tanya: Vortex versus flow. But you said the virtuous cycle.

Joanne: Yeah, yeah. So the vortex is the vicious cycle.

Tanya: Vicious versus vortex.

Joanne: Flow is the virtuous cycle. This

Tanya: is flow.

Joanne: So we're reversing the direction.

Tanya: Yeah. For all this work. I mean, you listed just all rejuvenation, running all these businesses and still coming home and sitting on the couch instead of, you know, biting your nails and going, how, how am I going to do this in that virtue?

What, when, what you receive is the ability to receive and not stay stuck in the vicious cycle.

Joanne: Yeah. It's like hacking life. It's, it's Joanne's life hack right here. Yeah, there's nothing else. If you take away nothing else from this podcast episode is that emotional flow is feeling the emotion, revealing the need, dealing with the need.

Tanya: We're going to end right there. That's it. That's the right thing. Joanne, thank you. Thank you for sharing your expertise with us. Thank you for talking us through anger and how that emotion looks and all the other basic ones that we had a chance to touch on. Where can everyone find you?

Joanne: I am pretty active on Instagram at Intelligent Emotions.

I also have something called the Big Feelers First Aid Kit, which is a free guide helpful for people who find out that their feelings are usually showing up at the wrong time, wrong place in the wrong ways. So Big Feelers First Aid Kit, you can find that at intelligentemotions.com/firstaidkit.

Tanya: Awesome. That's also going to be tagged in our giveaway below. We've got that set up for you, Joanne. Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it.

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Joanne Kim, Feelings Translator

Hi! I’m a therapist-turned feelings coach who helps Highly Sensitive Persons, Empaths, Enneagram 2s & 4s, etc. turn their BIGGEST feelings into their GREATEST superpower! 

They are often the first (or only) person in their family to intuitively process and express feelings; consequently, they are often judged or criticized so that they learn to people please, placate, or perform until they hit a wall. 

They’re super familiar with anxiety, guilt, and shame, partly because of an allergic reaction to anger (theirs and others').

Often the super responsible, empathic, and ethical person in their environments, they reach out to me after they're already burned out, resentful in their relationships, or sucked into their shame spiral.

The most common feedback I get from people when I share about how feelings work is,

"Why didn't anyone teach me this in school??"

Hence, I am building a school helping people work WITH their feelings so their feelings work FOR them.

Join the waitlist here and you’ll get details fresh off the press!